I have been thinking about an old post that was posted on Jonny Baker’s website called What Women Want by Jenny Baker on men and women in the church. Here is part of the post.
Looking at traditional and especially evangelical churches, I think the other main issue that perpetuates the gender divide is that men and women in the church, and especially in any form of leadership, don’t know how to be good mates with each other. A lot of networking happens relationally – through hanging out in pubs or over coffees, going for meals together and late night conversations at conferences. When people think about putting on conferences, or doing projects together, or meeting to wrestle with theology, they invite the people they know. And because it’s largely men doing the inviting, it’s largely men who have been invited; women have been left out of the picture or included in a token capacity because they know we ought to be in there somewhere.Because there has been such an unspoken fear of inappropriate relationships between men and women developing, most opportunities for strong healthy relationships have been squashed as well. Women are safe to converse with in larger groups but not one to one. It’s OK to encourage them but not to mentor them. You can chat over coffee at the dinner table but not go down the pub and have a beer together. Single women are, of course, especially dangerous. And so the conversations and networking tend to happen in separate gender groups and are all the poorer for it.It seems that emerging church networks make a point of valuing and nurturing friendships, not wanting to set up hierarchies or claim to have the answers but rather spending time learning from each other which is great. But I hope that we’ve got over this fear of one another and that men and women are mature enough and secure enough to make space to really get to know each other well, to listen to dreams, frustrations, ideas and wonderings and together build something that’s more like the kingdom.
The reason why I started thinking about this was that over the years I have worked in both a secular environment where this isn’t even an issue. I have worked at the same place for a decade and I haven’t ever even heard rumors of sexual harassment or people crossing the line let alone experienced it. We have a clear policy on what is appropriate and what is not and people abide by it. It’s pretty basic.
Growing up I attended a Pentecostal church and went to a small Bible college. I married Jordon and became part of the Free Methodist Church and over the years have been around this thing called the emerging church. In this context, things don’t seem as clear cut. Growing up I was taught that it was always the women’s fault. When someone was molested, raped, or whatever… she must have done something to provoke they guy into doing it. The idea that a man would have the ability to control himself was alien. At church this kind of attitude was reinforced by hearing guys say they couldn’t worship if a women at church looked “too hot” or something similarly stupid. When I got to college, I was told that and off the shoulder sweater that showed a bit of my one shoulder should not be worn as it turned on some of the other students. Again the idea was reinforced that men could not control themselves and it was my fault..
In college, the topics of sex, masturbation, and pornography was talked about openly but very little if any was talked about healthy interaction between men and women. Even if it was, it was undermined by the rules against how women should dress or rules against sweat pants just in case a guy got aroused (I am serious). Instead of talking about it, they just created rules against everything. That doesn’t promote health at all.
Recently I have struggled with a church leader whose treatment of me would have him fired if he worked at Safeway. While it was verbal, it was constant and it was quite hurtful and demeaning as were other gestures. Jordon and I tried to talk to him and leave the message that I found it quite demeaning but he either didn’t get it or didn’t care. I suppose he didn’t get it or couldn’t conceive that was he did was sexual harassment.
So why has the church been a more frustrating environment than the secular world? Some suggest a sexism that goes beyond differing opinions on women in ministry. That may be true. Unlike a company that has a centralized structure, evangelicalism doesn’t have any such thing which makes change in some areas very hard to come by. Because most people don’t realize that they are sexist (or racist) without any external pressure and many evangelicals spiritualize or theologize their treatment of women, things aren’t likely to change. Finally, because there are so many caricatures in evangelicalism and in society, people can always find someone that is worse than they are.
Will anything change? Of course it will. For every church leader that I have met that looks at my chest when talking to me, there are dozens and dozens that know how to have normal friendships with members of the opposite sex. People like Scott Williams can even horribly embarass me without going even near the line, let alone cross it (now with Jordon, Scott not only crosses the line but picks it up afterwards so he doesn’t trip over it when he is done 
). It is just one of those things that needs to be talked about rather than checking to see if a skirt is too short in a Bible college.
). It is just one of those things that needs to be talked about rather than checking to see if a skirt is too short in a Bible college.
Wendy,
Excellent post. While I know it is a far more personal issue for women, as a man trying to address these things, I have been called many uncharitable things. Most teasingly dismiss me as an eccentric or a “feminist” (as though I should be embarressed by it). Others blatantly accuse me of “killing masculinity”.
At any rate, I would love to hear your thoughts on my recent post on diversity & gender at my blog.
Peace,
Jamie
It’s good to hear that some churches are making progress on combating the sexism that comes with being religious. Certain things like God being the male gender, women being barred from the priesthood, and marriage ceremonies where the woman is commanded to obey her husband are all things organized religion will have to overcome if it wants to become less sexist.
My family’s church made some progress, partly out of necessity, but also through the expectations of forward thinking people who spoke up, even against a strong willed and old-school priest. Things such as women alter-servers, and a church board with at least half women on it are things that I sense just don’t happen in most other churches of the same denomination. It certainly wouldn’t meet the favour of the church’s upper organization.
Great post. Not enough is said about these topics.
tremendous post! thank you for sharing this. i remember those kinds of rules in bible college and i remember wanting them to be stricter and harsher than they already were…why, because i couldn’t control myself and it was the job of the women to do it for me. there needs to be more conversation like this…and more talk about men controlling themselves!
Great post Wendy, it is important for women to speak strongly in regard to this issue. Too many times nothing is said because we don’t want to offend, we are taught to be quiet and meek. That is ‘unfeminine’ even to have an opinion of such things. We all miss out on the beauty of diversity found in how He created us, male and female.
Very switched on. Men can certainly control themselves in terms of what they allow themselves to see, but most haven’t learned how to do that; and when every second woman had a low-cut blouse or miniskirt, it can prove difficult to keep one’s gaze holy. In the book “Every Man’s Battle”, 1 Corinthians 8:9 is quoted:
Men have a physiological reaction to the sight of a woman’s body; it becomes like an addiction. Whether in the office or at church, I feel rather uncomfortable even knowing that the woman I’m talking to has a low-cut blouse – even if my eyes are fixed on hers or the floor. Thanks to the Lord I’m oer the action of letting my eyes flick down, but it impedes my ability to develop closer friendships with women when I have to worry about keeping my eyes off certain parts of her anatomy.
Thanks for bringing this topic up.
Wendy,
Can you plz tell me as to how you added the Technorati tags here in your blog.. I was looking for it but I don’t know as to how to add it.
These are a great couple of posts. Thanks for those good quotes.
Wendy,
Great words! I serve with a senior pastor who is also a US Army Reserve chaplain, and he has commented to me a number of times that he sees clergy routinely behave in ways that would, in one instant, ruin & end a soldier’s Army career.
I have too often been shocked at comments (and sometimes behavior) among male clergy that just defies notions of respect and common sense, never mind Christian charity and honoring the image of God.
As a hopeful note, my wife (we’re both Lutheran pastors) just celebrated her 2nd year anniversary serving a congregation where she is the second pastor they’ve ever had. The founding pastor retired after being there over 30 years. So they went from retiring male pastor to young female pastor, and they have been wonderful! (The congregation has, in fact, been much more welcoming of her than some of the other local pastors have been, alas…)
Thanks again for your great words.
Definitely an important topic to discuss, and you have my respect for putting your feelings out there so openly and honestly. If I could make one or two suggestions it would be to not generalize or overstate (you used “many” or “the church” instead of “my church” and “many I know”), and also to offer specific solutions to this problem. You’ve got a really good grasp on what’s frustrating you and, based on the comments so far, others who attend church or are in leadership positions in their churches. Now nail down some constructive solutions (talking, like you suggested, is a good start) and move “the church” forward. Blessings!
Actually, I think Wendy did a good job of giving very specific examples from her own experience and not overstating. Judging from her description of her own upbringing, I think she was a model of restraint. I have worked in the secular non-profit world and in the evangelical world, and the difference in the treatment of women is just as dramatic as Wendy describes. Every single woman that I know who has worked in the evangelical world has had similar experiences. (And I’m not overstating – it really is every single woman that I know) I could tell you stories….
If you want constructive suggestions, here are mine:
1. Stop excluding women from pastoral positions on the grounds that God has ordained those positions only for men. The Catholic, Orthodox, fundamentalists and most conservative evangelicals still bar women from being pastors or priests. Mainline Protestant denominations, which are the most egalitarian, are still dominated by men.
2. Use both feminine and masculine images for God and more gender-inclusive language, ie, don’t use “man” if you mean “humanity.” God is not a man.
3. Tell women and men that they are responsible for their own behavior – sexual and otherwise. I don’t mind taking responsibility for my own lust and actions – I do mind bearing the responsibility for yours.
I have more, but those three things should keep the church busy for the next couple of decades…
As you state, “Growing up I was taught that it was always the women’s fault. When someone was molested, raped, or whatever… she must have done something to provoke the guy into doing it.”
I think you missed the point. God calls us to a higher standard of holiness, which is of the *heart*. It’s not just about being able to physically control yourself. For example, it is a sin to get angry without a cause (Mat 5:22) or to merely *look* to lust (Mat 5:28). (Note that you can “look to lust” and still keep physical control.)
The issue is about the heart and the conscience. We should do our best to avoid being stumbling blocks to fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. And, of course, this applies to both men and women, and to other areas of life.
By the way, that also explains why “the church been a more frustrating environment than the secular world [in general]“—the standards are just way higher.
As for that leader, pray for him, and try to explain to him that Jesus calls us to love and care for one another, but what he’s doing is offensive.
Christy-
I reread the post, and you’re right, Wendy did give good, specific examples from her own life of problems she has faced. I got focused on that second to last paragraph where the generalities or overstatements were condensed–it must have been a “last thing I read, first thing in my mind” kind of mistake.
Your suggestions are spot on. I think the hang-up on points 1 and 2 is whether God’s Word is truly inspired or not (with inspiration meaning God spoken but written unaltered by human hands), and how much cultural influence is in the scriptures. From what I’ve read and experienced in various denominations, that battle will never end, and to some extent, that’s the beauty of being given a mind by our creator. That said, if the patriarchal structure and imagery in scripture is cultural and not God-ordained, then let’s ditch it now because that would be wrong to continue it. As for 3, I agree that we each need to be responsible for our behavior. However, if a woman’s push-up bra and tight, low-cut shirt are in front of me, don’t expect me to look away or even look her in the eye. Which isn’t to say I can’t look away, but I probably wouldn’t want to. But as a man who wants to maintain spiritual integrity and attempt to not look lustfully at her, I need to just walk away. Good stuff, Christy; I hope you’ll write more about this.
I agree that this is a great post, Wendy. And I’m sorry to hear about the trouble you’re having. Sorry that he doesn’t want to hear.
If I had a dollar for every conversation I’ve had with a guy who somehow thought my breasts were going to magically start talking… I’d be a very, very rich woman.
It’s all about basic human respect. Most manage it very well. The few that don’t leave my skin crawling for days…
Frederick Douglass wrote in his biography that the worst slaveholders or overseers he ever saw were those that “had religion.” The used the Bible to back up their position as being over the slaves; and, would often treat their slaves worse than the owners who weren’t churched at all.
I think the same goes for the handling of sexism and sexual misconduct in the church. The leadership has been “placed” into their rolls and probably don’t think they should be subject to questioning from the congregation.
“Growing up I was taught that it was always the women’s fault. When someone was molested, raped, or whatever… she must have done something to provoke they guy into doing it. The idea that a man would have the ability to control himself was alien.”
I’m sure that it was the little boys’ fault when they were raped by Catholic priest. Sometimes Christian churches are so obtuse to the real problems that are going on.
I think part of the difficulty is that Christian men– especially those who are closer to traditional gender roles –tend to chastise Christian women easily. It’s so easy to focus on obvious answers than better ones.
Somehow Christian men seem to see Christian women in the madonna/whore perspective, whether as paragons of virtue or sluts of the earth. Christian men really need to view Christian women more multidimensionally, or we are just as dense as the stereotypes allow.
I figure Christian men don’t consider other reasons some Christian women may dress provocatively/sexily:
1. Because they feel stifled and need another outlet.
2. To feel confortable or open
3. Just for a change of pace
If Christian men are not making it easier for Christian women to feel creative, relaxed or flexible, I think some of the aggravation on both sides would subside some.
“I am a man, and I can change…if I have to, I guess”
Oops…my last paragraph should say, “If Christian men are not making it easier for Christian women to feel creative, relaxed or flexible, I think some of the aggravation on both sides won’t stop.”
Sorry about that. God have mercy on me, a man.
worthyisthelamb “We should do our best to avoid being stumbling blocks to fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. ”
That to me sounds like a justification of backwards “if a woman is raped they were inviting it” thinking, which is exactly what Wendy is debunking in her article.
I cannot believe what I am reading in your posts. People are STILL blaming women for men’s lust. What’s next full dress in a muslim Chador (black dress covering everything except hands/eyes) Pah-leese. I personally am exhausted trying to be pure in *heart* and not be a “stumbling block to others.” What I believe we need is teaching and living examples of healthy male/female relationships, not another sermon on how women need to be responsible for men’s lack of discipline.
I have several male mentors: spiritual, and personal – NOT ONCE in over 18 years have I ever crossed the line, so to speak, with my mentors. In addition, neither have they, and in the process, all are encouraged and enriched by each others’ lives.
WHY is it that we are entering 2006 and the church as a whole STILL has issues in our “liberal” society with men having strictly professional/spiritual relationships w/ women (especially single women)
I grew up Canada and know the pain and anguish of sexism and sexist church structure. Although I am Christian and do not want to be part of organized religion, my parents whom I still live with would probably disown me if I left the church. It is more of a fear and rejection then anything else. I know what the Catholic Church teaches about women, contraceptio is not RIGHT and you do not have to a rocket scientists to figure that out!!!
It requires the patience of Job to put up with Christian males who refuse to treat women like human beings. Sexism within the church needs to stop.
That being said, wearing sexually provocative clothing in a professional or church setting is inappropriate. It is either passive aggressive, rude or unethical, depending on the woman’s goal in doing so. Let’s face it, dressing like a prostitute for church is a bit weird. There is an ulterior motive to such behavior. It is absolutely done for affect!
It’s one thing to be appropriately annoyed and frustrated when male church members disenfranchise us simply because we’re female. It’s another to fly into a snit because a married man doesn’t want to be seen lingering in conversation with a flighty little tart wearing a push up bra, see-through blouse, wobbly stilettos and skin-tight skirt to a prayer meeting.
I hope fundamentalist males will become secure enough in their own masculinity to stop asking women to pretend to be weaker than we are. It’s rather pathetic, and causes real problems. That being said, men have a legitimate beef when we demand they ignore certain women’s sexually provacative atire. The crass broads who behave in this fashion set the cause of equality back with their irrational demands.